smart stuff
posted by Rob @ 1:14:00 AM
22 comments
Moments of Adequacy
Updated irregularly, with wildly varying degrees of enthusiasm and skill.
Friday, November 10, 2006
About Me
- Name: Rob
- Location: San Diego, California, United States
Mostly, I'm just really happy to be here.
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22 Comments:
Totally, utterly amazing. Scary almost.
"Julie, you could be right. Or it could be that a person of one race can live for years in, around, and among people of another race without ever exploring the other POV in any meaningful measure or without acquiring an empathy for the language issues involved, choosing instead to defend an imaginary right to speak in a way that the majority of the other group would find offensive, and disregarding any caution on the subject as irrelevant and outdated PC rhetoric."
Taking it off Cecily's blog and bringing it right to your door. . .
Jesus Christ. I've been teaching for 14 years. I'm frustrated as hell. My students are failing-- only 9% graduate from my school. I have the right to speak as honestly and clearly as the situation warrents, not to tiptoe around and make shy white-bread noises. You call that empathy; I call it being a pussy.
Any black person with his or her eyes open will take one look at the students of whom I refer and see the problem. The ones who don't pass? They aren't doing the work! It's not the fauly of 400 years of oppression nor is it the fault of whitey. It's their own damned fault. And the solution isn't PC language or patronizing pity, a kind of backhanded racism-- it's them getting up off their asses and cracking a book.
You have no idea who I am or what I do all day or how I think about my students or how much I love them and am frustrated to death when I and my colleagues bend and twist this way and that trying to accomodate and understand and remediate and counsel, and the kids fuck up anyway. Not all of them, to be sure. There are some breathtaking successes. But sadly, the vast majority.
Do you read about these issues at all (and attend conferences and work on committees and begin initatives as I have done for years) or do you just pop up from suburbia to pass judgement on those of us who do? And have you ever actually talked to black people about this stuff? I have, and my many black colleagues say essentially the same thing I do.
Julie
Yeah! What Julie said.
?????????????????????
Is there some kind of disconnect on the thread of comments realting to the Rubik's Cube video? I'm missing something here. How did the dialog on education get started?
I must have missed something too...but it does sound like a great argument...
Anon #2
Since Bryan seems to have stepped out for a minute, I can clarify.
Julie is continuing a discussion that began on another blog. For context, check out the comment thread to this post, which Bryan linked to a few days back in his post about voting .
thx for the clarification, cal. (maybe julie should have linked it herself.) bryan: you're really getting your wish lately of lighting the "phone-bank lights" up on your blog, and apparently others also.
back to this subject -- you're right, too big of brains for me to fathom. i can't solve a rubik's cube on my own w/my eyes open, ashamed to say, let alone creating a machine/solving w/a blindfold. i found myself holding my breath on the 2nd video (maybe because i thot he was stopping and i could tell he shouldn't -- but then why would they release the video if he failed? i make for a good audience -- i get easily caught up.).
so, what other topics do have in your arsenal that could p*ss people off? :)
Apparently, the record for blindfolded solving of rubik's cubes is three cubes in a row. This means the solver looks at three mixed up cubes then is blindfolded and then solves all three without taking the blindfold off. Here's a site.
http://www.recordholders.org/en/records/rubik-blindfold.html
incredible cube stuff. thx, unca.
julie,
i don't disagree that the majority of what is going make "the black experience" in america better is going to come from within -- maybe it's not fair, but i think it's the way it is.
and i wouldn't argue with what you say about your students, or question your dedication to them -- kudos to you for working hard to make things better – but I do have a serious problem with the way you said it, and I still question your sensitivity to the underlying issues.
Your students are black. They are lazy. They fail. What connections do you intend that we draw? Is their laziness connected to their blackness? Is the blackness irrelevant? Are you merely seeking to highlight what liberal white people like to call Black Despondency? IOW, what is the point of your statement?
As I said before, context is everything. In a conversation between you and your colleagues, where you’ve established that you have your students’ best interests at heart, you might be at liberty to say all manner of things that could be taken badly by some hyper-vigilant guardian of PC. I’ve had conversations where friends or acquaintances -- black as often as white -- have speculated about things in a way that might end careers in other contexts.
But in a blog post or comment, everything’s shorthand, and details -- especially about race -- need to be relevant or need to be left out.
Cecily posted about young men discussing how cops behave in black neighborhoods – a HUGE issue. But this group of young men, rather than being bitter, appeared fairly resigned (as I read Cecily’s account).
But Cecily ended her post with “Sigh”, which I took as both a lack of empathy for the young men, and quite patronizing. The sigh coupled with the title of the post gave me the impression she was saying, “How frustrating that these young men are so short-sighted. Their lack of enthusiasm is why nothing is going to change – ie, things could change if they’d only vote – ie, the status quo is their fault because they don’t care.”
Apparently I read Cecily wrong, and her sigh was merely frustration with the entire situation. Fine.
Then you said essentially: “Hey, my students are black too, and you know what? They don’t succeed because they’re lazy.” The common thread here is young black people and how they’re to blame for their situation.
I don’t care who you are and how much you give to the UNCF, that juxtaposition sounds at worst racist and at best *extremely* patronizing.
Which may not be a disaster – you can explain where you’re coming from, make a case for your POV.
But you know what happened? When people brought up the fact that it sounded a bit racist, you launched into Defensive White Person mode. You were scornful of the idea that anything could possibly be considered racist. You suggested it was PC run amok. You sounded like the kind of white person who says “Well, *they* say the N-word, I don’t see why *I* can’t…”
At first I thought you were saying
“Only PC-mongers would have a problem with juxtaposing two ways that groups of young black men are lazy”
Now it sounds more like
“We have a serious problem here in black america; a lot of the young people are lazy”
I’m still not sure which it is, or if you’re saying something else.
Quite refreshing, someone who's not kissing Bryan's butt for a change...thanks, Julie.
Sorry, Bryan, I gotta agree with Julie. Lazy is lazy. No excuses. Period.
Bryan: Why do you allow Anonymous posts on your blog? If you didn't, we would have missed out on the above, in which Anonymous so artfully and simplistically reduces the whole argument to three meaningless words. What a shame that would have been.
"What I find in teaching at a majority-black urban college is that my students quite happily dismiss their civic duty to vote because "they" are all "bunch of crooks." They very often cite the 2000 election as a reason to never grace an election booth. I point out easy it is to latch on to conspiracy theories when you feel overwhelmed by how much you don't know about something (government, the electoral process). Usually we spend a little time on it then.
I think Viv is being incredibly reductive in blaming the legal system and cop behavior for what I clearly see as educational underpreparedness/laziness."
Okay, this is exactly what I said on Cecily's blog. What, exactly, do you have a "serious problem" with?
What you see as "defensive white person mode" is me being shocked at your selective listening.
Just a quick comment on the misplaced thread : I think I would be cautious to mention a possible PC error or suggest an alternative word that could be determined less offensives to someone on the front lines and to someone who is trying to make a difference. (Unless I walked in those same shoes) Bryan, say you decided to go for a ride with a social worker who happened to be white. This social worker has worked in the same neighborhood for 14 years which happens to be mostly black. While you’re driving around you pass a bunch of guys hanging out on the street corner and the social worker says to you. “You know it’s really a shame, I have known some of those black guys for 10 years and it’s so frustrating to me that most of them are just too lazy to get off their butts and get a job” Bryan, would you say or feel like saying something like “You know (Social Workers name) I think you’re being a little careless about your language and I know you’re not prejudice or anything but I think you could have used a better word than lazy”
So many black communities are facing so many serious issues. I think the least of their problems is the need for white people to walk on egg shells all the time worrying that they may say something that might trigger something from their oppressed past. I think it is far more valuable to be in involved in the situation itself and trying to make a difference.
I agree with blogball. I come from the community environment myself.
Here’s what I have a problem with:
1) Cecily’s post sounded (to more folks than just me) like she was suggesting young black men’s apathy was a bigger issue than police harassment, lack of representation, etc. In that context, you made a statement that sounded like “I know some other young black men who are also lazy” and followed it up with a comment I saw as dismissing a very real, very powerful, and very serious issue: cop behavior and a legal system that works better for some people than for others (“in blaming the legal system and cop behavior for what I clearly see as educational underpreparedness/laziness”).
2) Curiousgyrl pointed out what I (and others) saw as insensitivity in those remarks.
3) Jodell O (who I misread as you, btw) said “You make yourself look pretty silly automatically assuming that anyone who would use the words "black" and "laziness" in the same paraphraph is implying that there is a connection.” As if it were pure coincidence that the words were used together (it wasn’t – AFAIC you weren’t saying “all black people are lazy”, but you WERE making a connection), and as if there *isn’t* a reason to be cautious about language.
4) Curiousgyrl apologized and made an honest declaration of what I think is a defensible position: “I believe its more important to be careful about calling black people lazy than careful about calling white people racist.”
5) You told Curiousgyrl she was still being offensive. Again, as if caution on the subject of loaded language is somehow more offensive than the language itself.
6) You added “How is Cecily blinded by color???? Does merely mentioning race now make one racist or "blinded"?” As if race had been merely *mentioned* in passing, when in fact citing your students’ race made it by that time a major connecting factor in the discussion.
7) That’s what I call Defensive White Person mode, and that’s what I have a problem with. I hope and trust you’re as energetic defending your students from racial slander as you are defending Cecily and Jodell.
Blogball,
We’re all somewhere in our lives, learning and growing; I don’t pretend to have arrived at enlightenment on this issue or any other. And I respect the contributions of many people, and don’t think it’s my place to follow people around and criticize their efforts. But sometimes things seem clear enough and important enough to say something if I think it will have an effect on the overall picture.
And I agree that being there and doing the job gives someone a little leeway on the less-important issue of language. It’s absolutely most important to be *doing* something to have a positive influence.
However, one can do a lot of really good stuff for people but still have a long way to go in empathizing. The Aussie govt thought they were doing a great thing for the mixed-race kids they took away from their mothers and placed in adoptive (white) homes – some people were doing hard work with good intentions; they were also woefully out of touch, and screwed up the lives of a generation of kids.
Bottom line: I think one can do much better work if one has the understanding that “I might do exactly the same as this person if I were in his shoes” as opposed to “I can’t figure out why this person doesn’t get with the program.”
And yes, I might indeed be tempted to have an opinion about a white social worker who refers to a random group of people as “some of those black guys”, if for no other reason than it suggests that he/she sees them primarily as “black guys” instead of “guys”. It’s part of Other-ing people, and of propagating associations between race and negative behaviour.
I’m not primarily concerned about this because I think black people will be offended; if you’re black in America there are plenty of things – some reasonable and some not – to get upset about if you want to.
What I’m on about is white attitudes. I think it’s useful to identify the powerful undertow that wants to sweep all of us toward simplistic analyses, especially those that absolve us of responsibility to change. It’s the same force that moves young black men to say “I don’t vote, they’re all crooks” – it means we don’t have to DO anything, like educate ourselves, or be careful about language, or whatever.
When a person says “some of those black guys are just too lazy to get a job” it’s suggestive. Consider if you were riding around in Boston – would you say “some of those white guys are just too lazy to get a job”? Sounds weird, doesn’t it? Why mention “white”? So if you mention “black”, it carries the suggestion of relevance, as though the subtext is “and that’s one of the problems with black America.”
And you know what? Let’s pretend it IS – for any of a million reasons, young black men being lazy is why they’re not getting ahead. It would STILL have several good reasons NOT to be leveraged into the conversation (except in particular contexts), not the least of which is how much it sounds like the previous 150 yrs of white people saying how lame, lazy, and to-blame for their situation all them coloreds is…
Consider: white america has been holding black america’s situation against it for a long time. In the last 50 yrs we’ve come to identify some institutional barriers to success that much of black America faced and much of white America was blissfully unaware of. Maybe white America will come to a similar realization WRT education & voting as well.
Or maybe not – maybe I’m wrong, and it’s all young black men’s fault. But in the meantime, I feel it ill behooves me to pass too much judgment on the young men, and such a simple thing to avoid potentially offensive language.
Maybe the language issue doesn’t resonate for a white person who is not a racist and just wants the best for everyone, but I know enough people for whom it DOES to make me want to make the effort.
And the nice part is that it’s not that difficult. The simplest test is this: when deciding whether it’s relevant to mention race, consider whether one would use the word “white” if one were talking about white people.
Just my two dollars’ worth. I’m imagine it may sound condescending or arrogant – please consider that it’s something I feel strongly about, and that I don’t consider anyone here a racist -- I’m merely giving my perspective.
Anon,
I could be inferring too much again; if so, sorry. But if you said, “Hey, someone not kissing Bryan’s butt for a change” I’d find that funny; the fact that you find it “refreshing” makes me feel you think I need to be taken down a peg, or find it irritating that people are nice in this space.
Anyway, I no longer need everyone to like me, but when they don’t I like it to be in person, not anonymously.
As to “lazy is lazy”, I envy you the simplicity of your analysis.
Bryan, thank you for your perspective and I do respect it.
Just a quick point: My analogy pointed out that it was a mostly black neighborhood. The social worker was pointing out a few people that he or she knew for 10 years who happened to be black. Maybe I should have made it a little clearer that there were more than one race of people hanging out on the street corner. This is why I said a bunch of guys in the beginning not a bunch of black guys. Let’s say there were 3 whites 4 Hispanics and 6 blacks. The Social worker said those black guys so you would know who she was talking about. If she would have said you know I have known those white guys for 10 years and it’s so frustrating to me that most of them are just too lazy to get off their butts and get a job. This would not strike me as strange at all. I have known a lot more white lazy people (including myself when I was in my early 20s) than black lazy people. The social worker is letting you know who he or she is talking about by the color of their skin. I just don’t see a problem with that. Why is this offensive language? Don’t you think it is a step forward towards a color blind society when we can all just talk to each other and not have to be careful how we say it or cringe when we hear words that might have been offensive a long time ago?
bb,
i agree with you in that i see nothing at all wrong with using race if it's the easiest way to identify someone, and there are no other contextual factors that might make the issue sensitive. "see those three guys there? the chicano one is my buddy from high school."
to NOT do that is stupid -- as if "black" or "white" (or whatever) were bad words.
but i see the context of the conversation julie and i are wrangling about as very different. to me, her comments amounted to "black folks who complain instead of doing something? i work with those, too." perhaps i'm hyper-PC, but i don't think so. i wouldn't even be keeping at the issue except for two things:
1) I'm very used to white people not understanding the connotations of their words. Our history is full of cliches of well-meaning folks who betray their lack of perspective with things like:
- I don't think of you as a black person. (which suggests that I think of black people in a certain probably negative way, but that i'm giving you a promotion to white status in my mind, which is sure to be an honor)
- I met Joe. He's black... very *articulate*.
- So-and-so is a credit to his race.
- Some of my best friends are __.
- etc.
2) I'm also used to white people getting their back up if they're called on this type of thing (rarely by me, btw). It's natural. I have felt the same way (ie, defensive) when I've become aware that I've inadvertently said something offensive. When we're well-meaning, we don't like to think we've offended someone. We'd rather go into defensive posture and insist that people are too sensitive, that PC is out of hand, that we're just trying for colorblindness, etc. And maybe we are. But IMO there's still much value in being careful with language.
As to your clarified example, i appreciate the explanation. I still find "I've known some of those white guys for 10 yrs" a little weird. Would anyone really say that? I think I would say "some of those guys", and if it mattered which exact guys it was I would say "the four white ones". And especially if I was going to follow it up with a comment preloaded with meaning by recent history, I'd be extra sure it was necessary to heave race into the conversation.
How do you feel about this one:
You see those Jews there? I've known them for 10 yrs and most of them are just plain greedy.
I agree with most of what you say here. The black articulate thing has always bugged me too. As if we are surprised to hear someone black speak articulately.
As far as : "You see those Jews there? I've known them for 10 yrs and most of them are just plain greedy."
This is quite different because the social worker in my analogy is speaking in line of what his or her work is about. The SW is mentioning the fact about some individuals work status and the reason for it. This is a big problem for social workers when they visit families with out of work fathers or mothers. The SW is showing concern and frustration over the situation.
Bryan, I think our goal is the ultimately the same for this country as far as equality but we have some differences on how to get there. Hopefully with some of your efforts and some of mine we can make it better for our kids.
Julie,
Twisting things out is my job.
Miscellaneous thoughts in no particular order:
I’m having trouble reconciling what I read from you. On the one hand, it sounds like you have a lot of genuine concern and do tremendous things for young people.
On the other hand, how can you not see that in the context we’re talking about, it’s not just reasonable, it’s very easy to infer what curiousgyrl and I did. You said “I am so tired of anyone just mentioning race getting jumped all over, like the whole thing is just not happening”; but my whole point is that it wasn’t just *mentioned*. Mentioning race is great. Propogating offensive stereotypes in a high-level discussion of causes & effects is not so great.
To you, the voting issue comes down to laziness. To me, that’s picking up on an *effect*, and end-product of a hundred different cultural factors, every one of which deserves to be mentioned on the way to “and it’s created a culture of non-involvement, abdication of voting responsibility, etc.”
I am, as you say, privileged and white – and I’m in the middle of arguing that sometimes I don’t see the point of voting. How much less would I want to vote in a system that fails me in fundamental ways like equal protection under the law, discriminatory sentencing patterns, etc.
And let me be clear: I don’t “blame whitey” for everything. Every culture or subculture has its pathologies, and IMHO there are several things that black america faces that could be avoided by different choices – whether about education, or whatever.
But the question is this (and I assume you’ve already had this conversation, read all the books, etc): Why is this happening? Why are your students ill-prepared and unmotivated? Why the lack of family cohesion, blah blah blah.
To me, there are two choices:
Either A, black people are fundamentally different from white people – stupider, more short-sighted, less ambitious, whatever.
Or B, we’re all more or less the same, but growing up black (and incidentally, growing up poor no matter what race) may present a young person with different choices, different models, a different world-view – one that doesn’t always groom one for success in the dominant culture.
If it’s B, and I believe it is, then the causal factors (how’s that for white-liberal-speak?) – including police/legal problems – are absolutely relevant, and in a conversation about causes & effects it’s lazy and irresponsible to focus solely on an end-product like “they don’t vote because they can’t be bothered to get involved.”
I understand that when it comes down to individual students, where you work, it’s a little late to discuss all that – it’s the past, and can’t be changed. You *must* focus on getting individual students up off their ***es and taking charge of their own educations and their own lives. Of course that’s what’s needed, of course that’s the relevant issue to the individual, of course that’s what can be done. Self-flagellating white people droning on about 400 yrs of oppression, sniping at each other for violating made-up PC rules, etc, does nothing for your students.
You said, “There is a problem. Pointing out that it's a problem for young black men does not make anyone a racist.” And I absolutely agree – talking is not racism, there IS a problem, it’s a problem for young black (and/or poor) men, and the best way it’s going to get fixed is through the direct efforts of these same young men, and possibly people like you helping them.
But again, I’m back to context. For me, in a blog post like Cecily’s (That’s Why Things Will Never Change), we’re discussing things at an abstract level. The blog audience is probably 90% white, very few of them with your exposure to the issues, any number of them still operating at the level of “Black folks seem like a naturally jovial people”
In that environment, it sounds a terribly jarring note to zero in on laziness as opposed to cynicism, distrust, victim mentality, educational opportunity, family modelling, or any of the other things that don’t sound so much like 1960’s white Alabama.
Re me:
Haven’t lived in a mostly-black city.
CORRECT. Met lots of people who *have*, tho, and as a credential it doesn’t necessarily impress me much. I’ve listened to people (white and black) say some pretty bigoted things about their fellow humans and follow it up with “Well, you’ve never lived with them, have you?”
Haven’t worked with a minority educational/socioeconomic underclass.
CORRECT, assuming you mean “worked with” in the sense of having a job working with these issues directly. I *have* had quite a few co-workers and clients from a “minority educational/socioeconomic underclass”; not sure how many books one needs to read, or conversations one needs to have, or how many minority friends of how many different races & backgrounds one needs to gain a little understanding of the issues. I guess all I can say is: show me where what I SAY is wrong or misguided, rather than saying merely “You sound like an X.” I’m not above learning I’m wrong about things, but specifics work a little better for me than a general ad hominem stmt about my background.
Never cared deeply about a demographic who increasingly baffles and saddens one
NOT CORRECT.
feels quite smug criticizing those of us who aren't afraid to talk about what is very real in the world.
I SURE HOPE NOT. If I come across as smug, I apologize. I do know what you’re talking about – well-meaning white folks with no exposure to the real issues. I live in Seattle, after all. As to being afraid to talk about reality – in the right context -- you might be surprised.
PS. Couldn’t follow the NYT link.
PPS. Stopped anonymous comments to try to reduce drive-by negativity. Contradiction is welcomed/hoped for, but I’m thinking if we all have to stand behind what we say we’ll make an effort to be as thoughtful and constructive as possible.
blogball,
point taken about the jewish example.
eekkk... I have posted anonymously a few times, but these weren't from me...
Julie and others,
Thank you for your willingness to participate in this dialog. For me, this is the best part about blogging.
-Bryan
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